My feelings are the same, Sandra. While I love my children, I can't show anyone concrete proof of my feelings, other than describing them and describing my actions as a mom.

While I've seen, heard and felt many things that I can't prove to anyone, they did happen. I don't have to prove my statements to anyone. If they don't believe me, that's unfortunate, but not really my problem. Since I have proven to myself that life does continue on after our bodies die, I am much more at peace with the world around me. That is all that matters to me. I only hope that others who doubt that love and loved ones survive physical death experience a spiritual event in their lives so they, too, are enlightened and comforted as I have been.

Hugs,
Angela

left-brained IQ guys who hate and fear what they can't explain.

I'm sure such people exist, Sandy.

I'm not one of 'em.

I don't hate or fear things I can't explain. They excite me, and send me looking for understanding.

Since I have proven to myself that life does continue on after our bodies die, I am much more at peace with the world around me.

That seems to me to encapsulate one of the problems with a belief in life after death, Angela. People have such a *need* for it to be true - and there are powerful psychological motors driving such beliefs.

My mother died last year. Her whole life she'd believed in spiritualism, convinced herself she had 'visitations' etc. (especially from my sister, who died in a car crash when I was 11).

A couple of weeks before her death we talked about what might be up ahead for her, and she said she now felt there was nothing. She'd been expecting my father (who died a few years ago) to 'contact' her - but he never had.

'What about Susan?' I said. 'All those things you said happened to you?'

'I believed what I wanted to believe,' she said.

I think an awful lot of that goes on.

John,

Maybe your father tried to contact your mother, and she didn't recognize it. As close as they must have been, and as many years as they spent together, perhaps she was expecting too much in the way of direct communication.

When I received the pages from my printer with the tiny heart on them, I knew they were from my father. It would have been great if he had been able to print the words: "Hi, everything's wonderful here. Love, Dad" -- but just because he couldn't, it doesn't make the experience any less real.

I'm sure you'll say this is a classic example of 'believing what you want to believe.'

So let me ask you, what would it take for you to believe that your mom and dad are together on the other side? If they materialized together right in front of you, would you accept it, or go looking for some "scientific" way to discount it?

_________________
Please spay or neuter your companion animals.
And when it's time to add to your four-legged family, adopt from your local shelter or rescue group.

So let me ask you, what would it take for you to believe that your mom and dad are together on the other side? If they materialized together right in front of you, would you accept it, or go looking for some "scientific" way to discount it?

If that happened, I guess I'd go through the following process:

1. I'd be aware that what appeared to be happening was extremely unusual.
2. I'd question my own perceptions. Was I dreaming, had I taken drugs, had I been without sleep for a long time?
3. If my ghostly parents stayed around for a while, I'd try to get confirmation of what I was seeing from other people.
4. I'd ask them to do things that I could measure. Move a few objects for me.
5. I'd take them to see James Randi and claim my million dollars.

The problem is, our senses are easily fooled. It's happened to me quite often. I remember walking through a suburban area about 3 a.m. and I *saw* a guy pruning a rose bush in his garden.

He had a cheque shirt on, long white hair etc. I saw him very clearly.

After I'd walked on a few paces, I did a double-take - and he wasn't there.

Now, he *could* have been a ghost, but when I walked back to the spot where I'd seen him, I noticed how the patterns of light and shade, the leaves etc formed a human-like shape, how a twig looked like pruning shears...

And I was very tired.

So I used Occam's razor.

What was more likely, that I'd seen a ghost, or that my eyes & brain had been fooled into mis-perception?

I would LOVE to experience a paranormal event. Have wanted to ever since I was a kid.

But I'm 50 now, and it's not happened yet.

Maybe whatever spirit MIGHT have WANTED to contact you--the figure it's a wasted experience. You're closed. No matter what you say and how you pontificate about all of this. You're closed. They know it. They moved on. Sandy

Wasn't aware I was pontificating, Sandy.

I thought I was simply taking part in a discussion.

You seem angry.

If you are, and if I'm the cause, I'm sorry.

All I'm doing is talking about (and in the process clarifying) what I believe to be true.

I'm with the Spirits. I'm moving on too. Sandy

Thanks for the above discussion, folks.

I got a story out of it!

John,
If you're still around and you still wish to carry on a lively (but totally NON-emotional) intellectual discourse about the existence or non-existence of spirits, ghosts, life after death or the paranormal in general, let me know...

It seems we both have a habit of, somehow, offending those with whom we think we are having a debate... (see "Trippy" thread...) I simply have a difficult time understanding why two or more people can't debate a subject with enthusiasm without "personalities" becoming involved...I guess most people never gained an appreciation for the skills required to be on the "debate team" in high school or college.... ;o)

I'll throw down the proverbial gauntlet right now, however, if your still interested in discussion on these topics -- no "personalities", no "emotionalism", no "peevishness", and certainly "no offense meant or taken" -- for as long as you like!

I'll tell you right now that I believe in life after death, I have seen "ghosts" with my own eyes, I have "known" facts regarding many situations which I had no explainable way to know -- even some rather "infamous" police cases... And I also know something of the way that "skeptic scientists" minds work... I consider myself to be a practical person who is firmly rooted in the real, the here and the now...

How 'bout it, John? Are you "game"?

Warm Regards,
jean

_________________
"Don't MAKE me get my flying monkeys!"

Jean,

I don't think John can post here. Angela booted him off the board a while back. However, if you want to have a one-on-one with him, you can probably reach him through his website link in one of his earlier posts.

If you were referring to me when you said, "It seems we both have a habit of, somehow, offending those with whom we think we are having a debate... ", I'm sorry you got the wrong impression. You didn't offend me at all! At the time we were having our "debate," I was staying up almost 24/7 taking care of an ill kitty. My last post in that thread was dated May 31st. Our 19-year-old Alice cat crossed over on June 3rd. Even though we knew she wouldn't be with us on this side much longer, it was very hard to deal with. Then, three days later (June 6th), we lost our other 19-year-old kitty, Lily, very unexpectedly. I just wasn't up to doing a lot of posting around that time, and since then, several new work projects have kept me away from the boards.

I re-read the "Trippy" thread, and I certainly didn't get the impression that you had upset anyone! In fact, several people made a point of thanking you for information and telling you how much they enjoyed their interaction with you.

Sometimes our emotions can make us see things that others don't. (And I'm not talking about spirits!) ;-)

All the best,
Nancy

_________________
Please spay or neuter your companion animals.
And when it's time to add to your four-legged family, adopt from your local shelter or rescue group.

Nancy,
Thanks for letting me know about John... I appreciate it very much... But you needn't have been concerned that I was talking about you at all when I referenced the "Trippy" thread -- I only mentioned that one because that was the only forum that had a similiar "bent" to it that I knew (or thought I knew) that John would have access to...

My main purpose in referencing the "Trippy" thread was to demonstrate MY ability to "point/counter point" with dignity, respect and intellectual alacrity...

I belong to at least 5 other "communities"... And without exception, at some point in similarly lively discussions in those communities (no matter how meticulous I am about NOT offending anyone on a personal level) at least one or two people (and, curiously, usually the ones who started off being the "snippiest" in their replies) appear to get very incensed and either cut off their participation in the discussion abruptly, or (rarely) begin "attacking" on a considerably less than intellectual level...

Truly, my first instinct when someone falls out of a discussion on a thread like that is to think, "Well, they must have had a lot going on in their lives and had to go take care of it..." So, you see, in your case, that is exactly what happened... :o)

I am so very, very sorry about your kitties... As you know, if you read Angela's book about spirit communications, my kitty, Mr. Felix, meant very, very much to me and my daughter (and just about anyone who ever met him!)... Kitties are such special little beings... I have always felt a special bond between myself and the feline species... When I look into their eyes, I see a depth of intelligence and the sense of soul that I don't find (for myself) in but one or two other species of animals... Heck... I cry every time I see one hit by a car on the side of the road -- I am actually moved to the point of tears for the loss of each one of them...

Thanks again for letting me know about John... I suppose now I'll have to find another "debate adversary" ;o)

Namaste',
jean

_________________
"Don't MAKE me get my flying monkeys!"

Thanks for contacting me, Jean.

Sure, I'm happy to discuss the existence / non-existence of the spirit world - but doing so last time got me kicked out of the forum. I think my non-belief upset a few people, although I don't really understand why.

Anyway, following your email I've popped back in again and if I'm allowed to stay I'll chat with you and/or anyone else - along the lines of your comment above.

If you're still around and you still wish to carry on a lively (but totally NON-emotional) intellectual discourse about the existence or non-existence of spirits, ghosts, life after death or the paranormal in general, let me know...

So here goes.

I don't believe in any of the following. *

a) A loving, caring God.
b) Life after Death.
c) Spirits, souls or ghosts.
d) Telepathy, telekinesis, precognition etc.

I have reasons for my non-belief - my non-belief is the product of many years of thinking about such issues.

That's where I stand.

So - where do you stand, and why do you stand there?

* To be more exact (and more scientific), I guess I should say I find these things extremely unlikely.

John Ravenscroft

Jean,

Thanks for your kind words regarding Lily and Alice.

I just read your story about Mr. Felix. (Haven't had a chance to read the entire book yet. My husband grabbed it to read the minute it arrived!) Are you and your daughter still seeing him? How does Plunkett react when Mr. Felix is around?

I've never seen the spirit of any of our departed kitties, but both my husband and I have felt them jump up on our bed and walk across it.

A couple of months ago, I had a phone reading with Sonya Fitzpatrick (the Pet Psychic from Animal Planet), and the first thing she said was, "Did you have a ginger cat? Because one just jumped up beside me." Alice's sister was a ginger-colored cat named Goldilocks. She crossed over two years ago, at the age of 17. Sonya continued, "She wants me to tell you that she's never left you, and that she's still sleeping beside your pillow every night, on the right-hand side." That is indeed where Goldie always slept!

I see you found John. Good luck in your debate!

Best,
Nancy

_________________
Please spay or neuter your companion animals.
And when it's time to add to your four-legged family, adopt from your local shelter or rescue group.

While I haven't seen Mr. Felix since we moved out of the house we lived in when I wrote the story, I DO still see him in dreams many, many times! As a matter of fact, I dreamed about him last night! This is the way I believe that he (and my grandmother and many others I have known who have passed on) visits me still...

I am always so happy to see him there in a dream... The dream is rarely about him... he's just there... as he was in life.... around me....

So comforting...

Namaste'
jean

_________________
"Don't MAKE me get my flying monkeys!"

John!

So glad to see you made it! My, we throw down the gauntlet right off the proverbial bat, don't we? Good!

First of all, I, too, could utilize your "catchall" reasoning to explain my belief in the existence of spirits and life after death and paranormal phenomena by saying what you said -- which is, to paraphrase, "The sum total of my life's experience tells me that there ARE such things..." However, I shall be more forthcoming than that...

Let's see... To paraphrase your assertions:

Your sum of experience precipitates your leaning toward a state of mind which says:

1) A loving, caring God does not exist.
2) Spirits, ghosts and the soul do not exist.
and
3) Precognition, ESP, clarivoyance and associated phenomena do not happen.

Have I got that correctly?

Let's start with number one:

If you do not believe that a "loving, caring 'God' " exists, am I then to assume that, for your part, a "hating, removed 'God' " DOES exist? OR that NO entity which one could name as "God" exists? Please clarify.

2) Since it is completely impossible for any one person to witness every single event happening in every single corner of the known universe, I would assume that -- rather than you saying "Spirits, ghosts, and the soul do not exist." (A statement which would, I'm sure you'll agree, be most egocentric in its implication...) -- you mean to say, "I do not find any physical proof which I can verify that tells me that spirits, ghosts, or souls exist." Yes?

I think that what I said about such a disclaimer being "egocentric" in its implications is the issue which lies at the heart of your statement. My husband (a 'Georgia Farm Boy' and a VERY practical, skeptical, and linear-thinking person if there ever was one...) puts this issue very well. You see, this man who was raised his entire life to skoff at such ideas as "ghosts" actually witnessed one while on duty in Viet Nam during the war. He says:

"Anyone who says they don't believe in ghosts just hasn't ever seen one, that's why."

While the point I am trying to make may seem 'simplistic' -- nevertheless, I believe it to be the ultimate truth as far as this question is concerned. And that truth is:

"Because I cannot be in all places at all times, I cannot with logic and conviction discount any activity or so-called phenomena as 'ghosts, spirits, or souls of the dead'. The fact that many different and diverging human beings have witnessed or other experienced encounters which they describe as 'ghosts, spirits, or the souls of those who have departed this earth through death' lends more creedence to the existence of these entities than it does not. Because I cannot, with logic and conviction, call every single person who professes such knowlege a 'liar' without substantial reason to do so. "

It is what I call "The China Rule" which says:

"Just because I have never been to China, does not mean that it does not exist."

n'est pas?

(I make the same argument for the case of precognition, ESP, clarivoyance, etc. as the above...)

Your serve.

Warm regards,
jean

_________________
"Don't MAKE me get my flying monkeys!"