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PostPosted: March 24th, 2004, 12:45 pm 
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Joined: January 7th, 2004, 3:22 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Oklahoma, USA
Quote:
Because of companies like Deveraux and Deloitte students study less than they should be, hence getting less knowledge.


I'm a college English professor, and I wholly disagree. Students are responsible for their own learning. They choose to study less or cheat themselves out of knowledge because of laziness. I refuse to place the blame anywhere else.

Cheating has always been possible, but students who are ethical and who really want to learn simply don't cheat.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: March 24th, 2004, 8:58 pm 
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Joined: February 21st, 2004, 8:49 am
Posts: 8
What about temptation? When you can get something for free you will be really tempted to swap it for your own work.


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PostPosted: March 24th, 2004, 10:33 pm 
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Joined: January 7th, 2004, 3:22 pm
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Location: Oklahoma, USA
Sure, but custom research paper sites are far from free. And my students were copying free from books and magazines long before they started copying from the internet. What they don't see is that the ease of cheating off the net also translates to ease of catching them. All I need now is google.

I don't mean to sound cavalier about it. I caught someone just yesterday (copied from a website, not a paper mill) and it always gives me a pang, but I'm not going to feel bad about failing a cheater because s/he just couldn't resist temptation. Everyone is free to do something else if college isn't their bag. If they choose to come, though, they should do their work.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: March 25th, 2004, 2:15 pm 
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Joined: October 8th, 2003, 4:46 pm
Posts: 687
There are many of free research paper sites on the net, do a Google search and see for yourself. While everyone is responsible for their own actions, of course, there is the "clean hands" aspect of it. People of integrity don't get involved in it with the attitude "no one is FORCING them to do this"..... what's that old saying? Something about people who sleep with dogs getting fleas??

I wonder what would happen if they discovered one of the writers selling the papers to these sites had purchased them elsewhere for less money, or for free? LOL

Cat


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: March 25th, 2004, 3:46 pm 
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Joined: January 7th, 2004, 3:22 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Oklahoma, USA
Quote:
There are many of free research paper sites on the net, do a Google search and see for yourself.


I thought the discussion was about writing for custom sites--sorry. Those papers tend to be quite expensive. The free ones come from students who "donate" their papers after they write them for a class, sometimes in return for membership in the site that allows access to better papers. (I really have learned a lot about this business during my plagiarism hunts.)

The main difference between free papers and ones that aren't free is quality, of course. Since you're familiar with the free sites, spend some time reading the papers. They usually really suck. The irony is that students I've known who have used them don't realize how bad they are, precisely because they haven't cared to learn anything about how they should be written.


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 Post subject: DD
PostPosted: March 25th, 2004, 11:11 pm 
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Joined: March 25th, 2004, 11:04 pm
Posts: 1
All i know is that this discussion has put me off getting a job at DD. They have just offered me a job but it sounds like 1 big scan. The email sent even looks automated like its sent out randomly to poor innocent students roping them in to a nastey trap. The company has sounds pretty dodgey and i dont like what they r doing to students work, but if university lecturers did more than #### all may be we wouldnt have tried so hard to cheaply cheat gettin results.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: March 26th, 2004, 5:19 pm 
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Joined: October 8th, 2003, 4:46 pm
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The main difference between free papers and ones that aren't free is quality, of course.


Simply because something costs more does not mean it's better. If the paper has already been graded and received a good mark, that might well be better than paying for something you can't verify before you pay.

Regardless, it's this type of thinking that has Americans paying 100s of dollars for a pair of sneakers and twice as much for the same perscription drugs Canada gets (and no matter WHAT your politicians or media tell you, this is a fact. Same producers, same suppliers, same everything).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: March 26th, 2004, 5:33 pm 
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Joined: January 7th, 2004, 3:22 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Oklahoma, USA
I'm not advocating either of them, nor was I promoting consumerism in some general sense. I was merely making a sweeping comment about what I've seen.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: March 28th, 2004, 10:59 pm 
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Joined: February 21st, 2004, 8:49 am
Posts: 8
DrShell, I want to draw your attention to the fact that students and graduates who are thinking to apply to companies writing essays for other students visit this board. When they see that you, as the Professor of the College, accept such services they rely upon your opinion because you are the authority for them. They then consider that such services are ethical and pursue their career in this industry. Please think about it and the effects your words are likely to cause

With all my respect

Lynn


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: March 29th, 2004, 1:02 pm 
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Joined: January 7th, 2004, 3:22 pm
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Location: Oklahoma, USA
I don't accept them at all--anyone who turns in such work in my classes fails the course. I appreciate your point, and I don't really disagree with it, but I don't think people (I'm not referring to you) should come on here and condemn other writers who are trying to make money through a legal opportunity. I use sample essays in my classes every time I assign something, and I encourage my students to use models as learning tools. I'm painfully aware that students abuse them and that the companies don't care, but I'm not going to say that writers who find work there have no integrity. I think that's unfair and not the real source of the problem anyway.

Interestingly, if challenged, these companies will scramble to demonstrate that they don't support plagiarism. I received a paper once that was bought for $40 online. Without paying for it I could only see the first paragraph, and I wanted the whole thing to take to the disciplinary committee. So I wrote the company, explained the situation and included the dig, "Since it's clear on your homepage that you are opposed to plagiarism, I'm sure you'll want to do everything you can to help me punish this student for breaking his agreement with you." The paper was in my inbox within the hour.

The increase in cheating is one small symptom of a much larger illness, which is the corporatization of education. Students no longer see a university education as an opportunity or a privilege, but as a series of hoops or tasks that they complete and forget about so they can get their license to have a job and start making money. The humanities, in particular, are less and less valued because they rely on the pursuit of thought and wisdom, which is incompatible with the instant gratification atmosphere we live in and doesn't translate well as job training. The arts used to be part of the privilege of the university education, of course--there is a difference between skills training and education--but more and more the question I hear is "How will understanding this poem ever help me in my job?" rather than "How will understanding this poem help me think about life?" It's depressing and disheartening. So please don't think that I don't take plagiarism seriously--it's not that. It's just that I look out over the entire situation of the university and see where students get the impression that writing their own paper doesn't mean anything, and that is a bigger worry for me.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: March 29th, 2004, 2:56 pm 
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Joined: October 8th, 2003, 4:46 pm
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but I'm not going to say that writers who find work there have no integrity.

It's just that I look out over the entire situation of the university and see where students get the impression that writing their own paper doesn't mean anything, and that is a bigger worry for me.[/quote]


I am at a loss to understand why you don't see the ethical contradiction in these two statements. It does however, go a long way into explaining your last statement. Laws often have little to do with ethics.

Cathi


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: March 29th, 2004, 3:33 pm 
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Joined: January 7th, 2004, 3:22 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Oklahoma, USA
Cathi, in your first example you don't include the beginning of my sentence, and without that context my point about using models is lost. I think you're ignoring my overall point in the second case, too, which is that we should be very worried about the attitude our students are adopting toward their education now, and plagiarism--not just from paper sites but from anywhere--is only one warning bell. If every one of those sites were shut down today it would make no difference; most of my cheaters copy their materials from regular websites anyway. The problem is that way too many students (and often parents) don't see themselves as paying for education--they see themselves as buying a degree, which is vastly different.

I do understand your perspective (though I don't think you're trying very hard to understand mine), but since I know that there are legitimate uses for sample papers I'm not going to flog anyone for writing them, nor am I going to let students off the ethical hook if they use them to cheat. If they use them that way, they're using them unethically. What's sad is that they don't see how they're cheating themselves--even sadder are the ones who see it but don't care.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: March 29th, 2004, 6:50 pm 
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Joined: October 8th, 2003, 4:46 pm
Posts: 687
What I am "hearing" you say is that these sites are not the problem, the students are.

What I'm trying to tell you is that it's that very attitude that is being reflected in the in the students' attitudes and in their unethical actions.

If we reacted with shock and outrage towards such things, then our youth would follow suit.

There is no valid reason for these sites to exist. Simply because you yourself did find one is no more significant that me being able to reuse glass jars.

If research was the main reason for these sites, they'd be out of business, because the index in any quality publication will yield far more resources than some term paper mill can provide.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: March 29th, 2004, 10:38 pm 
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Joined: January 16th, 2004, 1:41 pm
Posts: 400
Location: Denton, TX
BookCoverDesigner wrote:
What I am "hearing" you say is that these sites are not the problem, the students are.

What I'm trying to tell you is that it's that very attitude that is being reflected in the in the students' attitudes and in their unethical actions.

If we reacted with shock and outrage towards such things, then our youth would follow suit.

There is no valid reason for these sites to exist. Simply because you yourself did find one is no more significant that me being able to reuse glass jars.

If research was the main reason for these sites, they'd be out of business, because the index in any quality publication will yield far more resources than some term paper mill can provide.


I have to agree with DrShell on this one.

First off, the theory that reacting with shock and outrage towards such things doesn't really seem to discourage stuff. If it did, homosexuals would all still be in the closet, and people probably wouldn't be doing so much heroin and cocaine.

Second, you say that there is no valid reason for the sites to exist, and yet you say that DrShell found one. I also fail to see what reusing glass jars has to do with anything.

I think that students are responsible for their own education. If they pay a bunch of money to get a term paper or a thesis, and get their degree without learning anything, and even if they aren't caught, they will pay for it in the end when they don't really know what they're expected to in the work force (or are expected to work, but haven't learned how to do anything but pay other people to do it for them).

_________________
Georgia ("Gia") Manry
[url=http://georgiamanry.com]GeorgiaManry.com[/url]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: March 29th, 2004, 10:49 pm 
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Joined: February 21st, 2004, 8:49 am
Posts: 8
Giapet, you would be absolutely correct if we spoke about grown up and intelligent individuals like yourself. However these are 18 years old students!!! If they get the chance they grab it simply because they are not thinking about the future and their career! And those essay sites are using that and sell them their papers!
And you know what is the worst thing? Students which have used these web sites are no more able to progress on the same level as their classmates which have written the work themselves! They do not know something and THEN they have to use this essay site until they graduate. In this instance it is the same as Heroin!
Think of it in the long run!

Lynn


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