Am I supposed to take these random body-functions as a sign that you have no more reasons for why PA rocks your world, or are you just a gentleman by nature?

And by the way, you might want to read through the terms of agreement again. I realise that you're getting emotional and upset, but when signing up for an account here you agreed to not post anything vulgar, hateful or obscene and so on.

Good to see you back John, but you don't need to be mean. I know how frustrating all this is. Today, has not been my day. Ever have one of those days when the pigeons poop just seems to fall on your hat no matter how much you move away from it? (I remember that happening to me once when I was a kid in the Boston train station) Anyway, it started out early. Fighting a battle alone can tend to do things to the soldiers. I went to the PA post board to ask a question. It was really not insulting or insinuating to anyone, but I wanted to know who was sending those BAD E mails. Well my posts were pulled. Which of course- Pissed me off! So then I went into someone else's post that was on the subject- of posts being pulled. I sounded off there about my lack of freedom of speach. Someone from PA answered, telling me that it was for my own protection. My response of course was that I could fight my own battles, ect... ect... ect... That post was pulled as well. I am not the kind of person that one so silently and ever so gently, wants to tell to shut up! I go on the defensive, I get angry.
I am not the adversary John, but we are not too dumb to listen and learn, are we? I am with you where you said that our books were published, but when I saw where you said that they (Around this board) were not published authors, I cringed. These people have far more experience and Luck- or skill- which ever way you want to see it- than we could imagine. Hell, I would be thrilled to get an advance like they speak of. Stiill, at the same time, I am grateful that my book will be in print so that I can order it, and try to get some sold. If I may ask the question that I asked them here, how much are your royalty checks???? Because the ones I've seen on PA's board have not at all been that impressive. Don't know if you are in tune to those boards, but it might not be such a bad idea to check them out. I do regurally. I wanted someone to tell me that they've made an impact. I really did, but most of them are new. Too new to add up the money. If this were on the PA board it would be pulled. My subject was 'Watch out for the Stepford people" Stepford... meaning those in control. Come on John... I can understand defending something that you believe in. I was there as well.... Still do fight for what is right, but they need to defend themselves as well- which is what I told them.

I saw that message, Stuffed (I'm stuck in bed due to a cold, so I've got a lot of time on my hands). I don't think they were being fair to you.

Don't worry about the advance thing. You seem like a sweet, hardworking person and I'm sure you're going to find the publisher(s) you deserve one day (hopefully soon).

Hi, Stuffedtoy--

The good news is that the slush piles (I've seen 'em) are not awash in unpublished gems. Those gems are rare. What that means is that if you've written one of the gems, you'll get published. Maybe not the first place you send it, or the second, but sooner rather than later.

This is a game of skill, not a game of chance. Consider that the book you're sending around may not be a gem, and write another. Work on your skills. Think about your writing. No one gets to Carnagie Hall without practicing an awful lot.

Things may be different in the non-fiction world where Willow and Dee practice, but over here with the novels (my main area -- I only have two non-fiction books, and they're both under pseudonyms) the main thing to remember is we're part of the entertainment industry. We are the readers' slaves.

If you can please the readers, you've got it licked. The more readers you please, the better. Because agents and editors are readers. They're professional readers. They're the first readers you have to please. The reason they have their jobs is because their taste matches that of a heck of a lot of the readers in bookshops and libraries.

You don't have to be famous or to know someone in the industry. (Lord knows I'm not famous, and when I was starting out I knew no one. I was an active duty sailor, stationed outside the United States.) What you do need is to write a book not just that people are willing to read, but that people are eager to read.

You have to be entertaining.

You know what you said about writer's write? I was thinking about that at 5 a.m. this morning. (I used to sleep in, now I'm up before the morning's light) Sometimes it's hard to get me out of the house because of my addiction to this computer. I don't have a lot of on-line activity, but several projects- both completed and incomplete, that I drift into. Who knows why I chose to do this, maybe I needed the escape, and some control over somebody's life. A chance to be anyone else that I choose to be, and create the life, both good and bad that I want to dwell into. Sometimes it's hard to seperate the reality from the fiction. (It's those damn voices, you see. Coming up with what should be a middle section to a novel) I have to get up and do the laundry or the dishes or something else- that takes me away. So I guess initially it was not about the destiny of the project, but my need for it.
In that respect, one should understand the delight in seeing it in REAL print.
However... It has taken a lot of courage for me to share these books with people. Fame was never my goal, which was why I chose to go incognito. :) And fear, that I wasn't good enough to compete in the real industry, held me back. I have recently gained some courage by asking for a review from the round table. Too bad they can't review everything I have before it goes to print.
I tell a story. Relationships are easier than the weird stuff that I like to write, but I'm a little bit shy about graphics, and I don't want to be added to the strict adult sections- if you get my meaning. I prefer that my own personal editors tear it apart- (though gently) and make it marketable- rather than just say it's good or whatever. I'm not immune to having my feelings bruised, but I prefer that I suffer that little embarrassment, rather than the big one of sending something in that won't be accepted. I do however, get into these moods where I'm ready to conquer all- the results of this so far, have not been in my favor. (crying proverbial tears)
Coming from where you are, it is hard to get the PA authors perspective. I am sure that there are worthwhile stories that have been written, but not considered good enough- for what ever reason, and there are some people who just have a story to tell. it doesn't matter to them who publishishes or buys the book. The rewards to this are yet to be seen.
I'm getting too long winded. The morning does that to me. Have a good day.

You have a good day too, Stuffedtoy.

If what you want is a copy of your book with your name on the cover that you can put on your mantlepiece, then PA is a perfectly reasonable way to go.

If you're looking for readers, then it isn't.

(If you're looking for fame and fortune, consider going into some other line of work.)

One of my biggest complaints with PA is that they take writers and turn them into salespeople. That takes 'em away from what they should be doing -- writing, improving their craft, telling other stories.

(Another complaint is that they routinely lie to, deceive, and browbeat their writers, but that's a whole 'nother rant.)

I really think that people who start with PA and are dedicated to the dream of writing, will eventually write themselves AWAY from PA--they have to, to have a real career in writing. One day, their submission won't go to PA, it will go somewhere else. And I think Stuffed Toy is a likely person who will write herself away from PA. Once she has "told her story" and moved from needing to tell the story to needing to make a career in writing, she and others, will take the next step. Of course, the fear of the writers here are that, PA will beat you to death emotionally before you ever take the next step and get away from them.

But I think there are SOME who will write themselves away from PA and others who will stay stuck with them--seeing their name on a cover of books piled in their garage is enough for them. But for others, Stuffed Toy included, it will never be enough.

Yep.... I think that you may be right, and stuffed toy will find other pastures to eat in. So to speak. Let me tell ya what's funny... When I chose to submit something to PA I just grabbed. At the time is wasn't my most favored masterpiece, but after a considerable amount of editing, I kind of like it. Surely, I never felt that this was my only stop, and even after signing on the dotted line, I still wrote things designed to go elsewhere. Not that I wanted to be critical to PA, but I like to spread myself around a bit. (In the non physical term.) Hoping that maybe my alias name would be remembered long after my feet stopped moving on this earth... Yeah- I know... pipe dreams of the insane.
Well I never said that I wasn't, as a matter of fact I find it a rather entertaining place to be.
Don't you?

I've figured out what's up with John Allen Jaynes.

He's a poet.

See, his contribution to The Ultimate Unknown [# 9, Fall 1997] ed. David D. Combs (Combs Press; Streamwood, IL, $4.00, 60pp+, quarto) listed as "# 30 • Nightmare • John Allen Jaynes • pm" is a poem.

Okay, for him, self-publishing is what's available. That explains the chapbooks, that explains everything.

With very, very few exceptions, poets don't get book offers. It just isn't in their career path. They can place poems by ones and twos in magazines, for pin money, and that's about it for markets. If they're very good. Else, there's just no market. Self-publishing is standard, even expected, for poets.

Putting out a chapbook is a great deal of trouble, and takes cash up front. True, you make more on the back end if you self-publish -- you can sell for a lower cover price and still make more profit -- but that initial investment in time and money isn't small.

So, since every sale he's likely to make in his life is going to be face to face, at a reading, at open-mike night in a cafe, at the library on Local Authors' Night, there's no reason not to go with a publisher whose business model imagines that every sale will be face to face.

Plus, if you're self-publishing and you're going offset, you have the basement-full-of-books problem. What John needed was a printer who would supply him with books twenty at a time that he could sell wherever he appeared on the program.

PA isn't a bad choice for that, honestly. It's just an overpriced printer that handles things like turning a manuscript into a pdf and finding the cover art. A one-stop shop where he's trading money for convenience.

So he buys fifty books, and every time he sells thirty he orders another thirty. He sells 'em at full cover price, he's making a profit on each one. Good deal, really.

He should have mentioned what his situation was. He's got a product that isn't intended for a large audience, or for bookstore sales.

Let's say he's got an 80 page book, going for $14.95.

Say he buys fifty at 50% discount (first time special offer). He's out of pocket $373.75 plus $27.50 shipping, for $401.25. He sells thirty at full cover price, at poetry readings. That brings in $448.50. His profit is $47.25. He buys another thirty at a 30% discount. Price is $331.45 (counting shipping). He's now back to -$284.20. He sells thirty copies, for $448.50, and his profit is $164.30. Another 30 ordered, $331.45. Bottom line is -$167.15. Sells thirty ($448.50 in) reorders 30 ($331.45 out), bank balance is now -$-50.10. Sells thirty, reorders thirty, and the bottom line is $66.95. He's in a cash positive position from then on, and has fifty copies on hand to sell at future readings.

The only real question, then, is will he be able to move 180 copies to break even and still have fifty on hand for readings, workshops, open-mike night, and so on? Depends on how big his city is, how clever he is in finding venues, and how good his poetry is. HIs publicity cost is zero. He'd be going to these events anyway, so he can write off travel.

Poets, almost by definition, aren't in it for the money.

Sorry, my friend. Come back now?

I dont think there wil be a come back--I think he got whacked and he's out of here. It looks like Angela "erased him" for bad behavior.

You know I've seen this as well. Poetry is a hard sell, and personally I don't understand why. I like poetry, and a lot of other people I know, like poetry. Music, is poetry with a melody. I'd carry John's book in my store and I think it would sell. (If it's good)
We go from one train to the other. Watch out for the pigeons.. :)

I couldn't read any of John's postings. Has my computer broken down or has he???

aq

_________________
Rejection is Nature's way of telling you to write better.

If he needs only one book published at a time, he could do better by publishing at CafePress. He'd have a lower per unit price which would make it possible for him to order in bulk and reach a break even point sooner. Also, if someone wanted his book, they could order direct from his CafePress store. Chances are, they'd get it sooner with less hassle than what I've heard customers go through with PA.

On the other hand, I don't know how good the quality is for the printing or the cover. However, he could order just one and find out easily enough. If not his own book, then a book from one of the other CafePress stores. It would be a small enough investment to determine just what their quality is.

cafe press isn't good for covers. i printed out a book of my satirical essays for my mom through them a year and a half ago. it was cute, but definitely not *quality.*

I walked backwards through this forum to find John's website, but all of his posts, with the exception of his name, are gone. What is up with that? Do we have Censorship on this board? I mean, I read his posts, and though a little.... don't want to use the word that comes to mind- they weren't that offensive. Maybe it was not him personally that was being attacked, but I am sure that he felt that way.
I thought that there was some good suggestions for his work and wanted to tell him, but without his website, I can not do that.
Take this information from the inside source... This forum is about PA- but in attacking it, you also attack its authors. Not because they have a personal relationship with them, but because their work is involved. I have gathered that PA has little respect from both publishers and the published alike, but I have seen some inserts where the work published was also criticized, and people take this personally.
Toward the end of this page (if I am still on page 11) compassion starts to show, but it appears that it is too late. It's one thing to gently lead, but quite another to be a bully. You can tell your experiences in the writing field- which basically, was the light at the end of my tunnel, but don't be condeming to ones personal work- not unless you've read it.
We are all entitled to a say here. Pro's and con's of PA is the subject- not 'you suck as a writer so no real publishing house will accept you.' Get that? Just some info for future use.