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 Post subject: agree to disagree
PostPosted: February 27th, 2004, 2:27 pm 
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Joined: January 13th, 2004, 4:38 pm
Posts: 426
I think, as Harry has already said, we are going to have to agree to disagree. I am in the camp who believes the company that sells these papers, and the writers who produce them, are also guilty of being unethical. Just as guilty as the student? I don't know. I think that's a hard distinction to make, and entirely subjective, but I think they are at least partly guilty. I can understand how others, like Harry, might see it differently though.

One thing I hope we can all learn from this is a pretty simple lesson: When you do business with a company that makes their money by helping others to cheat, it's pretty safe to assume that they will, in some circumstances, be willing to cheat themselves. Given this, it is also pretty safe to assume that eventually they will get around to trying to cheat you. Regardless of the other ethical issues, I think this alone is a very good reason not to work for these companies.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: March 3rd, 2004, 9:18 pm 
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Joined: March 3rd, 2004, 9:04 pm
Posts: 1
Kiwi
Don't let anyone tell you you should or shouldn't work for an academic paper sight. I always had a problem with people who didn't do their own work at school, but you don't know why someone needs a paper done. Principle when you are low-income or just want to be around to home school your kid is a luxury that isn't always affordable. If someone doesn't want to do that work then they don't have to do it. I've learned in this life that it's easier to say what you would or wouldn't do until put to the test. Others can mind their own lives--you do what you need to do. I've never done this type of work but you are writing and earning a secure income that leaves you time to pursue artistic endeavors and take care of your kids. Good luck with pursuing what's rightfully yours. It isn't alway "cheater" sights that do the cheating. It's not like you are stealing your best friend's husband or robbing a bank.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: March 4th, 2004, 11:57 am 
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Joined: March 2nd, 2004, 3:40 pm
Posts: 31
tumbleweed361836 wrote:
Kiwi
Principle when you are low-income or just want to be around to home school your kid is a luxury that isn't always affordable. If someone doesn't want to do that work then they don't have to do it. I've learned in this life that it's easier to say what you would or wouldn't do until put to the test. Others can mind their own lives--you do what you need to do. I've never done this type of work but you are writing and earning a secure income that leaves you time to pursue artistic endeavors and take care of your kids. Good luck with pursuing what's rightfully yours. It isn't alway "cheater" sights that do the cheating. It's not like you are stealing your best friend's husband or robbing a bank.


Ethics are meaningless if they are mere conveniences we toss aside when times are tough. It is the tough times, the difficult decisions, that truly test a person, and a person's ethics.

This writer made choices, knowingly. She didn't want to work outside the home: a luxury many of us cannot afford. So I find it difficult to defend her decision to eagerly seek work at these types of companies.

If these papers were honestly being used as mere examples to students, there would not be such demand for more papers on a variety of subjects. And, as BCD pointed out, there are academic sources a student can consult. If a student was really struggling, there is not a professor in the business who would not provide assistance, guidance and/or examples. Of course this is an unethical business, and I think the writers who supply these texts are culpable as well as the companies and the students who buy the work.

As for tumbleweed's remark about earning a "secure income" from this sort of work, well, I guess that's just been shown to be untrue, now, hasn't it? LoL

And, yes, tumbleweed, some of us can say what we would do when put to the test --- because many of us have been put to the test and did not resort to unethical work.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: March 4th, 2004, 4:08 pm 
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Joined: September 18th, 2003, 11:18 am
Posts: 21
Location: Texas
It is unethical to run a business that sells papers to students, period. If you are a bomb maker, you know what your bomb is used for. It isn't a paperweight, it's a bomb. Guns are made to kill. Manufacturers of these things aren't stupid; they know what they make them for. Everyone in the chain is partially responsible. Even Hitler didn't act alone. Many people can contribute to something terrible, and each has their own portion of blame to carry.

If times are tough, tough it out -- you don't resort to crime and then say it is justified because of your need. What you choose to do not only affects you but it affects other people, too. Writers get treated badly because too many writers are willing to work for peanuts. Too many writers give away their work because they need an insultingly low paycheck. If we all refused to bow to these unethical publishers (whether they are paper mills, cheats, cheap, large scale, etc) then we would not have writers starving and their children suffering. We get no respect because too many of us do not demand it.

matavai, you are SO right. When I could not find work from home (as I had been enjoying for 4 years) I went out to work in a reservation center for a large hotel. Since I don't even have enough money to own a car, I had to take a cab there and back which was 10 dollars each way. sometimes it's very hard and very inconvenient but you get through it and things get better. I'm back to working from home now, too.


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 Post subject: Kiwi
PostPosted: March 4th, 2004, 9:26 pm 
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Joined: June 23rd, 2003, 11:01 am
Posts: 9
Location: Denver, CO
In a very real sense, writing term papers for money is no different than ghostwriting a book for a celebrity who then takes credit for the work. It is a job for hire. What the student does with the term paper is their responsibility.

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J M Cornwell


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: March 4th, 2004, 11:53 pm 
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Joined: October 8th, 2003, 4:46 pm
Posts: 687
That's ridiculous. The reason students are assigned papers is so they can become educated. Do you really want your doctor buying his anatomy papers? Do you want the school-bus driver who picks your kids up to have passed his course with someone else's papers? At what grade level shall we start? No sense in little Sally learning all that third-grade science, chances are she'll never need to know you don't put a grease fire out with water.

If what you say is true, then rich kids can simply pay someone else to sit in and take their exams for them. Let's keep the ones that become air traffic controllers, pilots and surgeons in your neighbourhood, okay? It's a matter of honour, integrity and principle. Apparently many people on this list had someone else write their business ethics' papers for them.

Maybe it explains why AIDS in on the rise, also. Too many kids not learning anything they're taught. No sense actually writing a paper on the way to prevent the spread of VD when I can go online and download one for free.

Eductation is valuable. I'm embarrassed for you believing it's not.


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 Post subject: Paper Experts
PostPosted: March 5th, 2004, 6:45 am 
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Joined: January 9th, 2004, 4:06 pm
Posts: 96
Location: Canada
Poor Kiwi,
All she wanted was the rest of her pay, now it seems like she was building weapons of mass destruction.a case in point though, if my Doctor was never taught anything besides what he learned writing stupid papers, well, good on him! he is a smart cookie.I wrote my own papers but learned a heck of a lot more besides the cramming I did to finish those "assignments!"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: March 5th, 2004, 11:52 am 
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Joined: October 8th, 2003, 4:46 pm
Posts: 687
You know, if I were to believe half of what you people say is going on in the American education system, I can fully understand why it is that when I interview US sources they assume Nova Scotia is in Alaska. My children do their own papers. If they need help, they get it. It would never even occur to them to hand in someone else's work. Your intellect grows from using your brain and learning. The same as biceps - your biceps do not increase if you pay someone else to do the workout. Stop supporting the lazy, dishonest people in your society and start giving some support to those who work and work hard for every grade point they get.


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PostPosted: March 5th, 2004, 4:09 pm 
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Joined: March 4th, 2004, 9:36 pm
Posts: 777
Location: Murphy, NC Copy Desk
BCD, I'm afraid that the passage of time finds the American educational system more and more resembling a factory. I don't mean to disregard the efforts of able, dedicated teachers and administrators; I'm saying that the fundamental institutional structure impedes them.

Regarding the main topic of this topic: I find perfectly logical that a student infer from observing the reprehensible conduct of some rich and/or powerful members of our society go largely unpunished, that cheating in school shouldn't be considered a big deal. That a firm can legally sell term papers and the like, lends still more weight to this rationalization. Moreover, how many young people, let alone adults, are not at times seduced by alternatives to hard work.

So it doesn't seem reasonable to place the entire blame on the student.

Dave


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